Disfunction
A while back I said I wanted to present my thoughts on the origins of so much of the sexual disfunction we talk about on these blogs as I disagree greatly with the conventional wisdom (at least conventional in this circle of people) on it. Then I forgot I was going to. Then Emily reminded me. Then I got busy.
So now I finally have time. Well, a little at any rate.
Also note that I'm coming down with a heck of a summer cold, so if I seem a bit more snippy than usual it is because I'm a bit more snippy than usual. Snippy cat is snippy.
OK, I know a bit about relationships with sexual disfunction -- particularly, sexual denial by one party -- because I lived that for 7 years and more to the point I found a way to cure it. I'm not going to claim my experiences are universally applicable, but I've seen enough parallels between my marriage and a lot of the others I've read about to think that their not universally inapplicable, either. So don't just dismiss it out of hand because it isn't what you want to believe, but then again, keep in mind that this is me and my wife so YMMV.
Especially if the one you love has legitimate health issues (so I don't this this will apply to your situation, Emily). I'm also going to take this from the male perspective (because that is all I know), so if you are female in similar circumstances you'll have to adjust things accordingly.
I absolutely disagree on pretty much all levels with the classification of people into High Libido and Low Libido and then blaming sexual disfunction on this and this alone. As if we can take something as complex and deep as why and how one person sexually desires another and boil it down to some sort of binary switch -- on or off, high or low -- that so conevientaly rests completely in the others persons nature. And as if we can take relationships where there is a problem with sexual denial and just place the blame all on fate: "Oh, well, she's just LL you know so that's that."
Total crock of BS in my opinion. And more than that, it is a convenient crock of BS because it releases the one complaining about it (the one who classifies themselves as HL) from any and all responsibility for the situation. There's a problem in the relationship and it is all HER fault because she's not what she should be. It would all be just fine if you'd just FIX YOURSELF.
It's passing blame with the express purpose of getting it off of yourself.
And that dynamic itself is, in my opinion, the true root of all of it. The false diagnosis reveals the true cause.
There are three problems with the attitude that says, "We have problems because you don't want to have sex with me because you are just LL" that I think cause the real disfunction.
1) Who do you love anyway? Do you love your spouse? Or do you love someone else? Maybe the wife she could be if she's just change herself. Maybe the wife she used to be. Do you love her as she is? Exactly as she is right now?
Is the wife you love the real her, or is it the figment of your imagination you fantasize about? The "you know, if she'd just change and do this, and that; and be this or that; and basically change into another person, boy that'd be great" dynamic.
This is a major issue. The number one issue. Because sex is about love and if you don't actually love your spouse for who she is, right now, then why would either you or she actually want sex together? And don't think that this doesn't come across. People know when they've been judged and found wanting. They know when you actually legitimately love them with the unconditional love you ought to have and when you treat them as a fixer-upper who might, someday, actually be worthy of your affection.
Unconditional love. That means accepting her for who she is RIGHT NOW. Even with the disfunction. Accepting her, and loving her, and showing her that you love her. If you don't. If you don't actually love the her that she is, then, well, there's your problem.
2) Why are you so HL anyway? What is it you want out of sex so badly? Is this all just about hormone fueled (and probably pornography inspired) lust, and she's the lawful and convenient outlet? Or is this actually about wanting intimacy with her? Refer to the post directly below this one. Is this about seeing something interesting in porn and wanting to try it, so you get all turned on and run to her?
If so, that's a problem. Because that's not what sex is really about. Sex is supposed to be about your love for HER. And now you've made your love for her be about sex. You've got it completely and totally backwards and you expect it to work?
Legitimate desire is wanting her. Illegitimate lust is just wanting sex. Love and intimacy and togetherness should inspire sex; not the other way around.
This besides all the other bad things porn gives us: an inability to appreciate the little things, expectations about what sex is always supposed to be like (something this intimate should be absolutely unique to the two people who experience it), etc.
You need to take a look in the mirror and ask what your own motivations are. And just answering "sex is something natural and everyone should want it, so that's all there is" isn't answering the question. What do you really want, anyway?
This matters because how you approach her is completely governed by what is in your heart and what your own motives are. What you really want comes across, and, again, if it isn't her but is something far more selfish then why are you surprised when this is poorly recieved?
3) What have you done for her lately? Are you so focused on her refusal to meet your needs that you've done the same for her needs? And your locked in a viscous cycle where both sides are saying, "I'll do for him/her when he/she does for me"?
So, in an interesting parallel between my and Digger's wives, they both tend to be slobs. Take any space in my house that "belongs" to my wife and it you are guaranteed to not be able to see the floor. If you look too closely at her spaces you'll probably be kind of grossed out.
Nobody likes to live this way, but sometimes people get lazy. Or tired. Or depressed. Or whatever. And just don't do what it takes to get it neat.
So, of there are two approaches to this situation as her spouse: cheerfully clean it up for her, not just helping her out but doing it for her as a gift to her; and letting it just stay messy and nag her about it and ask what her problem is.
Which of these is showing her that you love her?
Which of these is showing that you want her to be happy?
Which of these is helping to meet HER needs?
It's been said that Sex Begins in the Kitchen and that the smell of bathroom cleaner is the greatest aphrodisiac. Why not try it?
If you're waiting for it to all be "fair" then you'll be waiting for a very long time. Love is about giving, not getting. It is about meeting the other person's needs, not about getting yours met by her. Have you met her needs? Do you even know what it is she needs? Not what you want her to need (which is generally the same thing you want), but what she, herself, actually needs?
Until you feel your marriage is around a 80/20 split in giving and getting you are doing it wrong. Nobody wants to meet the needs of someone who is completely ignoring theirs, and that applies to HER as well as to you. If the cycle is to be broken then somebody has to break it by being the adult and doing what they ought to do. And pouting and demanding that SHE do it doesn't help.
Man up, Nancy, and do your job. And do it right.
These three things: not actually loving her, but the her she might be if she would just change who she is into your fantasy; having unfair and unrealistic and unpersonal expectations about sex because what you want is eroticism and not sexual intimacy; and ignoring her needs because you are too focused on yourself, all make for a very ugly picture.
Look at that picture. Would YOU want to have sex with that?
Not wanting to have sex with that doesn't make you "low libido." It doesn't mean there is something wrong or broken in you and your sex drive. It means you actually have some self-esteem and KNOW that you deserve better. If you DID want to have sex with that, THEN there would be something wrong with you.
The form this very well-deserved response takes will, obviously, vary by the persons involved. My wife is stubborn as a mule and tends to show her claws at the slightest thing, so it involved a lot of fighting and arguing. Other people are more passive-aggressive and might just avoid the issue, refuse to talk about it, change the subject, etc. Same thing, because the primary reaction isn't necessarily anger or whatever but a simple lack of attraction or possibly disgust. The primary reaction is, "I don't want to have sex with you." Not, "I don't want to have sex" just "I don't want to have sex with you."
And why would she, really?
Sure, some people are still more sexual than others and, when the stars align and they finally stop fighting it (temporarily) they might enjoy the act itself, but that is so shallow. Because sex should be about interpersonal intimacy, which starts with actual real love for each other -- as we are -- and shown in countless ways both in and out of the bedroom. In figuring out what she really wants and needs (not what you want her to want or need) and doing those and not doing the things that just make her uncomfortable or turned off.
So many people looking for answers as to why, why, why won't their spouse actually love them. So many people who look at the real reason every time they look in the mirror. Certainly was in my own case. And so many people who want to grasp at any other possible explanation as long as it takes the responsibility off of themselves. As long as they can shift the blame elsewhere. As long as they can keep from having to change themselves and, instead, just get what they want RIGHT NOW, and have it handed to them -- the way a two year-old wants his mommy to give him his candy right now, right now, right now.
And so much justifying and explaining away to try to make this basically infantile behavior look adult and mature.
So, turn all the inspection and critical eyes on yourselves. If someone who is healthy and normal doesn't want to have sex with you, the problem is likely with YOU. If someone isn't fantasizing (or not telling you about it), then the problem might just be with you. If someone doesn't want to kiss you, the problem is likely with you. If someone finds the thought of getting all nasty, squishy with you gross, the problem might just be with you. If someone doesn't even want to talk about sex with you, the problem might just be with you (and what you've turned sex in the relationship into).
Etc.
How to fix it? Start actually loving the person. Turn off the porn, and realize what sex is actually supposed to be about. (Why we think that something we all know is wrong won't lead to problems is beyond me). Examine yourself and your own motives, your own feelings, your own actions, and what exactly you are telling your spouse on a daily basis. Are you telling them you love them with your mouth, but showing them by their actions that you don't? That it isn't really them you love but yourself, and that you might actually love her if she changes into someone who will give you exactly what you want when you want it?
If so, stop it.
Instead, change yourself. Be that person for your spouse. Be the one who fulfills all needs and wants RIGHT NOW without asking for anything in return. Figure out what will make her perfect world, and DO IT.
For how long? Wrong question. Figure out that making someone you love happy should be the HEIGHT of your own pleasure, not being serviced my a mindless automoton. Find pleasure in service, not being serviced. Figure out what is really meant by, "It is more blessed to give than to receive." She's not returning the favor right away? So what? Make her pleasure your own, and service to her what gives it to you the most, and her response becomes immaterial. (Although I doubt anyone on earth is truly heartless enough to be exposed to that sort of unconditional love and NOT respond.)
She doesn't deserve that kind of treatment? So what? This isn't, in the end, about her. This is about being a MAN and doing your duty. Doing your job. And your job is to love your wife and enjoy it because that it what you were made for. Not the selfish, childish, pouting because she's not giving you what you want right now. Grow up. She's not your mom.
Too hard to do? Well, that's your issue. Self-control is hard. Untraining the mind from equating mindless, target-less lust with real sex is hard. Learning to give is hard. Learning to give without getting paid back in kind is very hard.
But nothing worth having is obtained easily.
So now I finally have time. Well, a little at any rate.
Also note that I'm coming down with a heck of a summer cold, so if I seem a bit more snippy than usual it is because I'm a bit more snippy than usual. Snippy cat is snippy.
OK, I know a bit about relationships with sexual disfunction -- particularly, sexual denial by one party -- because I lived that for 7 years and more to the point I found a way to cure it. I'm not going to claim my experiences are universally applicable, but I've seen enough parallels between my marriage and a lot of the others I've read about to think that their not universally inapplicable, either. So don't just dismiss it out of hand because it isn't what you want to believe, but then again, keep in mind that this is me and my wife so YMMV.
Especially if the one you love has legitimate health issues (so I don't this this will apply to your situation, Emily). I'm also going to take this from the male perspective (because that is all I know), so if you are female in similar circumstances you'll have to adjust things accordingly.
I absolutely disagree on pretty much all levels with the classification of people into High Libido and Low Libido and then blaming sexual disfunction on this and this alone. As if we can take something as complex and deep as why and how one person sexually desires another and boil it down to some sort of binary switch -- on or off, high or low -- that so conevientaly rests completely in the others persons nature. And as if we can take relationships where there is a problem with sexual denial and just place the blame all on fate: "Oh, well, she's just LL you know so that's that."
Total crock of BS in my opinion. And more than that, it is a convenient crock of BS because it releases the one complaining about it (the one who classifies themselves as HL) from any and all responsibility for the situation. There's a problem in the relationship and it is all HER fault because she's not what she should be. It would all be just fine if you'd just FIX YOURSELF.
It's passing blame with the express purpose of getting it off of yourself.
And that dynamic itself is, in my opinion, the true root of all of it. The false diagnosis reveals the true cause.
There are three problems with the attitude that says, "We have problems because you don't want to have sex with me because you are just LL" that I think cause the real disfunction.
1) Who do you love anyway? Do you love your spouse? Or do you love someone else? Maybe the wife she could be if she's just change herself. Maybe the wife she used to be. Do you love her as she is? Exactly as she is right now?
Is the wife you love the real her, or is it the figment of your imagination you fantasize about? The "you know, if she'd just change and do this, and that; and be this or that; and basically change into another person, boy that'd be great" dynamic.
This is a major issue. The number one issue. Because sex is about love and if you don't actually love your spouse for who she is, right now, then why would either you or she actually want sex together? And don't think that this doesn't come across. People know when they've been judged and found wanting. They know when you actually legitimately love them with the unconditional love you ought to have and when you treat them as a fixer-upper who might, someday, actually be worthy of your affection.
Unconditional love. That means accepting her for who she is RIGHT NOW. Even with the disfunction. Accepting her, and loving her, and showing her that you love her. If you don't. If you don't actually love the her that she is, then, well, there's your problem.
2) Why are you so HL anyway? What is it you want out of sex so badly? Is this all just about hormone fueled (and probably pornography inspired) lust, and she's the lawful and convenient outlet? Or is this actually about wanting intimacy with her? Refer to the post directly below this one. Is this about seeing something interesting in porn and wanting to try it, so you get all turned on and run to her?
If so, that's a problem. Because that's not what sex is really about. Sex is supposed to be about your love for HER. And now you've made your love for her be about sex. You've got it completely and totally backwards and you expect it to work?
Legitimate desire is wanting her. Illegitimate lust is just wanting sex. Love and intimacy and togetherness should inspire sex; not the other way around.
This besides all the other bad things porn gives us: an inability to appreciate the little things, expectations about what sex is always supposed to be like (something this intimate should be absolutely unique to the two people who experience it), etc.
You need to take a look in the mirror and ask what your own motivations are. And just answering "sex is something natural and everyone should want it, so that's all there is" isn't answering the question. What do you really want, anyway?
This matters because how you approach her is completely governed by what is in your heart and what your own motives are. What you really want comes across, and, again, if it isn't her but is something far more selfish then why are you surprised when this is poorly recieved?
3) What have you done for her lately? Are you so focused on her refusal to meet your needs that you've done the same for her needs? And your locked in a viscous cycle where both sides are saying, "I'll do for him/her when he/she does for me"?
So, in an interesting parallel between my and Digger's wives, they both tend to be slobs. Take any space in my house that "belongs" to my wife and it you are guaranteed to not be able to see the floor. If you look too closely at her spaces you'll probably be kind of grossed out.
Nobody likes to live this way, but sometimes people get lazy. Or tired. Or depressed. Or whatever. And just don't do what it takes to get it neat.
So, of there are two approaches to this situation as her spouse: cheerfully clean it up for her, not just helping her out but doing it for her as a gift to her; and letting it just stay messy and nag her about it and ask what her problem is.
Which of these is showing her that you love her?
Which of these is showing that you want her to be happy?
Which of these is helping to meet HER needs?
It's been said that Sex Begins in the Kitchen and that the smell of bathroom cleaner is the greatest aphrodisiac. Why not try it?
If you're waiting for it to all be "fair" then you'll be waiting for a very long time. Love is about giving, not getting. It is about meeting the other person's needs, not about getting yours met by her. Have you met her needs? Do you even know what it is she needs? Not what you want her to need (which is generally the same thing you want), but what she, herself, actually needs?
Until you feel your marriage is around a 80/20 split in giving and getting you are doing it wrong. Nobody wants to meet the needs of someone who is completely ignoring theirs, and that applies to HER as well as to you. If the cycle is to be broken then somebody has to break it by being the adult and doing what they ought to do. And pouting and demanding that SHE do it doesn't help.
Man up, Nancy, and do your job. And do it right.
These three things: not actually loving her, but the her she might be if she would just change who she is into your fantasy; having unfair and unrealistic and unpersonal expectations about sex because what you want is eroticism and not sexual intimacy; and ignoring her needs because you are too focused on yourself, all make for a very ugly picture.
Look at that picture. Would YOU want to have sex with that?
Not wanting to have sex with that doesn't make you "low libido." It doesn't mean there is something wrong or broken in you and your sex drive. It means you actually have some self-esteem and KNOW that you deserve better. If you DID want to have sex with that, THEN there would be something wrong with you.
The form this very well-deserved response takes will, obviously, vary by the persons involved. My wife is stubborn as a mule and tends to show her claws at the slightest thing, so it involved a lot of fighting and arguing. Other people are more passive-aggressive and might just avoid the issue, refuse to talk about it, change the subject, etc. Same thing, because the primary reaction isn't necessarily anger or whatever but a simple lack of attraction or possibly disgust. The primary reaction is, "I don't want to have sex with you." Not, "I don't want to have sex" just "I don't want to have sex with you."
And why would she, really?
Sure, some people are still more sexual than others and, when the stars align and they finally stop fighting it (temporarily) they might enjoy the act itself, but that is so shallow. Because sex should be about interpersonal intimacy, which starts with actual real love for each other -- as we are -- and shown in countless ways both in and out of the bedroom. In figuring out what she really wants and needs (not what you want her to want or need) and doing those and not doing the things that just make her uncomfortable or turned off.
So many people looking for answers as to why, why, why won't their spouse actually love them. So many people who look at the real reason every time they look in the mirror. Certainly was in my own case. And so many people who want to grasp at any other possible explanation as long as it takes the responsibility off of themselves. As long as they can shift the blame elsewhere. As long as they can keep from having to change themselves and, instead, just get what they want RIGHT NOW, and have it handed to them -- the way a two year-old wants his mommy to give him his candy right now, right now, right now.
And so much justifying and explaining away to try to make this basically infantile behavior look adult and mature.
So, turn all the inspection and critical eyes on yourselves. If someone who is healthy and normal doesn't want to have sex with you, the problem is likely with YOU. If someone isn't fantasizing (or not telling you about it), then the problem might just be with you. If someone doesn't want to kiss you, the problem is likely with you. If someone finds the thought of getting all nasty, squishy with you gross, the problem might just be with you. If someone doesn't even want to talk about sex with you, the problem might just be with you (and what you've turned sex in the relationship into).
Etc.
How to fix it? Start actually loving the person. Turn off the porn, and realize what sex is actually supposed to be about. (Why we think that something we all know is wrong won't lead to problems is beyond me). Examine yourself and your own motives, your own feelings, your own actions, and what exactly you are telling your spouse on a daily basis. Are you telling them you love them with your mouth, but showing them by their actions that you don't? That it isn't really them you love but yourself, and that you might actually love her if she changes into someone who will give you exactly what you want when you want it?
If so, stop it.
Instead, change yourself. Be that person for your spouse. Be the one who fulfills all needs and wants RIGHT NOW without asking for anything in return. Figure out what will make her perfect world, and DO IT.
For how long? Wrong question. Figure out that making someone you love happy should be the HEIGHT of your own pleasure, not being serviced my a mindless automoton. Find pleasure in service, not being serviced. Figure out what is really meant by, "It is more blessed to give than to receive." She's not returning the favor right away? So what? Make her pleasure your own, and service to her what gives it to you the most, and her response becomes immaterial. (Although I doubt anyone on earth is truly heartless enough to be exposed to that sort of unconditional love and NOT respond.)
She doesn't deserve that kind of treatment? So what? This isn't, in the end, about her. This is about being a MAN and doing your duty. Doing your job. And your job is to love your wife and enjoy it because that it what you were made for. Not the selfish, childish, pouting because she's not giving you what you want right now. Grow up. She's not your mom.
Too hard to do? Well, that's your issue. Self-control is hard. Untraining the mind from equating mindless, target-less lust with real sex is hard. Learning to give is hard. Learning to give without getting paid back in kind is very hard.
But nothing worth having is obtained easily.
posted by Christian Husband at 9:36 AM
21 Comments:
Terrific, terrific post, XH. Thanks for this. You really did nail it, on multiple levels. "Take the log out of your own eye before you point out the speck in your [spouse's] eye."
Excellent points, all of them, especially the one about loving the wife you've got, rather than the one you wish you had.
And the one about sex being about the two of you, not about what you saw some porn queen doing on a DVD.
Oh, heck - these are all excellent points.
My only quibble - and it really is a quibble, nothing more - is that, for a marriage (and the sex associated therewith) to really sing, you need two unselfish partners. It's possible for one spouse to 'knock himself out' for the other, and the other just figure they've got it coming, giving nothing in return. Which isn't to say that the first partner then has just cause to throw their hands up and quit, but my giving to the utmost doesn't lead inexorably to my wife responding in kind. Altho, as you say, a person would have to be pretty hard to just never respond (people can be pretty hard, sometimes).
Marriage only really sings when both spouses treat it as a '100-100' proposition - when you both just go 'all in', without worrying about what you're getting back.
Human nature being what it is, tho, that can be a hard place to get to. . .
Yeah, but you can't control another person. You are only responsible for yourself. And if it takes BOTH partners giving 100% then that means that you -- YOU -- have to give 100% and let her worry about herself.
All I mean is, even if I do the right thing, there are no guarantees. . .
But yes, exactly so - I only have control over my own actions. . .
(even tho it took up half the words I wrote, it was still only just a quibble. . .)
I can tell you're cured because you didn't spell dysfunction correctly. Anyone who's currently enduring sexual dysfunction knows exactly how to spell it! ; )
I think a lot of what you're saying is common sense, although it doesn't "feel" right because it's not what we want to hear. I think for a lot of people, it's a matter of bridging the gap between striving to improve your relationship, which I think is important and always a work in progress ("a journey, not a destination", etc.), and finding some level of satisfaction with what you have right now. It gives your partner the idea that no matter how much they change or give, it's never going to be enough. And what you see as a small step, they see as a leap.
I'm as guilty of it as anyone! I have found the best thing for my marriage is to understand that my husband & I are different people, and have different reactions, and different ideas, and that's wonderful, not terrible. It's not settling for less than you deserve, but it's also not trying to change someone into something they're not. I have nagged and nagged and nagged about issues in the past and gotten nowhere. I've found that simply expressing my needs to him in a non-whiny, non-judgmental way and then backing off works wonders. A compliment to him on his efforts also helps the process.
Starting to ramble.. just wanted to say I appreciated this post and what you had to say on things.
Crap, I knew that didn't look right. I always try and spell things phonetically and that just never works with English. Why would that possibly be a "y"? I hate the English language. Why have an alphabet where the letters represent sounds if you don't have the proper sounds represented by the letters?
I could go back and edit it and correct it, but no. As a protest against such nonsense I'm just going to leave it. So there!
Anyway, Taja, considering that the gender players in your situation are reversed, a lot of this advice would have to be different. For instance, as you mentioned in the comments on my last post, your husband's porn addiction plays a role in the problems you have. Instead of giving you the advice I just gave the men -- to worry about yourself because you can't blame the other person -- I would say that the blame DOES rest on a lot of his issues in your case.
A lot of this is what it means to be a man and the "head of the household." It means taking responsibility for your house, your family, your marriage. In general, my advice to the guys would be: if the problem in your marriage is something you are doing wrong, then change yourself; if the problem in your marriage is something SHE is doing wrong, then change yourself. Take ownership of it, and man-up.
So, my advice to you would be a bit different. Your husband has GOT to take that ownership at some point, or you'll continue to have issues. He needs to grow up, and man up, and fix himself.
Oooh, there's Taja, showing off that fine 'Harvard-of-the-Midwest' education!
;)
(seriously; I'm teasing. . .)
(really; a lot of my best friends went to Michigan. . .)
I thought about pointing it out, XH, but I thought, "Eh, why bother; it'll only make me look, uh, pedantic." (Not that there's anything wrong with that. . .)
I think that the people who like to use words like 'dysfunction' like to have them look as 'exotic' and 'Greek' as possible. . .
(Really, Taja, I'm only teasing; I have only the utmost respect for your school. . .)
Unfortunately I am unable to comment anonymously here and I am more than slightly embarrassed by what I'm about to say.
However, I am going to say it. I have been diagnosed with Nymphomania. A true form of HL, and an uncontrollable one at that both annoys me and embarrasses me..
My partner suffers from producing low levels of testosterone. He is an actual medical case of LL.
I am sexually frustrated in our relationship. It has nothing to do with love. I love my partner more than I could ever describe.
My sexual frustration has nothing to do with porn, wanting to change my partner to suit my own image of him, or anything else you have mentioned in this blog post.
My sexual frustration does not determine my happiness with my partner. Unfortunately my sexual frustration is due to a hormonal imbalance. Does it affect my relationship? Yes. Is it classified as 'sexual dysfunction'? Yes. Does it ruin my relationship? No.
I think the one difference between my actual medical problem and the so-called 'sexual dysfunction' described in most blogs today is what I make of it.
When I don't get enough sex I don't view it as a personal attack on my person, or a lack of 'qualities' in my partner. I see it for what it is: a medical condition on both our parts that we just have to learn to live with. We overcome our difficulties with communication, caring, respect and closeness.
This problem has actually brought my partner and I closer together, oddly enough.
The only reason I bring this up is because not all 'sexual dysfunction' is brought on by wanting to change a partner to suit your desires, watching porn, or a lack of love on one person's part. Sometimes, it's a valid issue.
Ah, I get it. It's always the man's problem. Okay. :-)
At one point you say that you disagree with any libido classification of high and low, but later, you admit that some people are still more sexual than others. What's the difference, exactly? I realize that categorizing people leads to problems, but regardless, isn't it true? We DON'T all have the same sex drive. That's obvious, and to deny it is rather ridiculous.
Strangely enough, I agree with much of what you write, except that quite honestly (and this sounds horribly prideful), it doesn't apply to ME. I'm not the perverted sexually-focused jerk you portray in your post.
You seem to equate unconditional love with never ever discussing problems or working to improve a marriage. I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.
Quite honestly, I'd be curious if you would have truly "sacrificed your sexuality" in the long-term. Say, if your sex life never would have turned around. Would you still be acting the same way in two years? Ten years? Twenty?
You'll say that you would, but since things turned around for you so quickly, we'll never know.
[I also have a cold, so anything I wrote here that seems snippy is a result of that.]
guinevere: I purposefully put in a blurb about this not applying when one (or both, I guess) partners have legitimate health issues. Of course, the key word there is "legitimate." I'm not doubting yours, but the other legion of people who, whenever anything in their life isn't perfect, blames some weird health thing and then finds a little pill to make it better.
We've got this whole culture of "it's not your fault, don't bother trying to change, just take a pill." The pharmaceutical industry keeps inventing diseases just so they can offer a cure.
That same inclination is related to the blame-game I was talking about in this post. The "blame it on some weird nature thing beyond your control" thing.
From what you've said, your case sounds fundamentally different, and there are actual legit health issues. I would still say that happy marriage is possible, but you definitely start with some disadvantages.
ftn: Doesn't apply to you? Doesn't it? You might not be the porn-fueled sex maniac, but don't you still bring to your relationship your own set of expectations that are clashing in your marriage?
I'm not equating unconditional love with never working on your marriage, but if the "working on your marriage" is one person coming from the perspective of "who you are is insufficient, change to make me happy" then that ISN'T unconditional love. If it is one person saying, "What we have isn't good enough, we have to fix it to make it OK" then you SHOULD just be quiet and learn to be content. Because that says the main problem is in the one saying these things.
If, on the other hand, both parties can say, "What we have is nice, but it could be better, let's work together to find out what all this means to us" then that's healthy.
It just seems that from your posts -- and I'm trying to be fair here, but if you think I'm not then shut me down -- there are a lot of things you keep trying to do or bring in that make your wife uncomfortable. And you KNOW they make her uncomfortable. Because you've done similar things in the past with similar results.
The attitude comes across as "She shouldn't have any problem with this. No normal person would have any problem with it. If she has a problem with this, that is her issue -- I'm not doing anything weird or abnormal or wrong."
The problem with that is, that you aren't dealing with a "normal" person, you are dealing with an individual -- and none of us fit what is supposed to be "normal." When you say, "She shouldn't be uncomfortable with this" you are making a value judgment. A value judgment that says, "I know who you are and it is wrong."
Which all sounds harsh, but you have yet to go to her and what she wants and needs. You keep doing the things you think she should want and need if she was the person you want her to be. But who is she really, right now? Is your relationship with the real person or the fantasy in your head?
Yes, we should all work on our marriages, as marriage is a journey. But all progress MUST rest on a foundation of unconditional acceptance and love. It must rest on really loving the other person for who they really are, right now, not who they might possibly be some day.
So, the side of Autumn that gets uncomfortable at overly assertive sexuality. The side of Autumn that says, "I don't know" to all the questions. Do you love those parts of her? Or do you find them things that need to change before things can be good?
Love her. Love all of her. In reality, not just words. Find contentment with who she is right now. And after you reach that point -- and she sees it and believes it and trusts it -- THEN watch where things go.
Long comment ahead! Be prepared.
First off, XH, I apologize for the snippiness in my first comment. It probably looked overly defensive, and I've been appropriately called on it as such. Take it at face value, and not me trying to be a jerk. It's sometimes difficult to get true intentions across on the Internet.
And I ate a great lunch at my favorite Chinese place, so I'm in a slightly better mood now.
You say that my attitude comes across as meaning, "She shouldn't have any problem with this. No normal person would have any problem with it." On the other hand, I'd like to think that I've always portrayed my wife as a very unique individual, one who DOESN'T fit into any of the stereotypical molds of the so-called "low-libido woman." She is an individual who I must love in a very specific way, a way that I'm continually learning about.
As for whether I'm trying to do a lot of things that make her uncomfortable? No, I don't think that's the case. Have I in the past? Probably at some point. You might be able to pick a couple of my blog posts out of the past few *years* that show that, but trust me, it is NOT a consistent thing. That's just not how I am. I don't say this to be defensive, I'm just admitting that the things I blog about occasionally don't portray the whole "me" (and how cliche is it for me to say that!). I've NEVER really pushed for my wife to do things that she doesn't want to do. I do hope, though, that our communication would be good enough that we could talk about those things in an adult manner. You don't want steak tonight, Autumn? That's fine, why don't we go for chicken.
Regardless of how much we, as men, love and learn about our wives, we'll never be mind readers. So we have to expect some amount of communication for a relationship to work.
One thing that concerns me in your entire discussion: You stress that the man should be the head of the household, and that he is responsible for the entirety of the relationship. Yet you virtually (if not explicitly) state that the WOMAN should have complete control of the sexual relationship. I believe the sexual relationship should be shared, and a compromise between two people. Yes, two people that unconditionally love each other.
You also seem to think that by my unconditional love of my wife, I must unconditionally love all of her ACTIONS, regardless of what they are. Would you love it if your wife started smoking two packs of cigarettes a day? How about if she started wearing tiny miniskirts and tube-tops to church? What if she expressed interest in a threesome with another guy?
I would expect that if I went and got drunk and made an ass of myself at a party tomorrow night, then my wife would NOT be happy with me. She might love me, yes, but that doesn't mean she'd love what I did. And I'm pretty sure we'd be talking about it.
As Desmond has pointed out to me, we are in agreement on 95% of things here -- You said some very good things in your post. Some of it is just in the definition of how certain things work. That kind of love is something to strive for, yes. Perhaps some of my defensiveness is because of a nagging thought in the back of my mind that is saying, "He's saying all of this like he follows this ideal perfectly."
And not to be mean, but I have my serious doubts about that. Maybe I just want to see some more of other people's shortcomings and fallibility to make me feel better about my own. ;-)
Eh, you weren't being too snippy. I certainly was -- and I probably made stuff a bit more personal than I really should have -- but you were fine.
On a related note, my cold has now turned into, well, I don't know but I do know that I feel like death warmed over.
As for your comments, I've a couple things to say. First, I didn't say you have to accept everything your spouse does as if they were perfect, but you should accept what they are. Our wives are just as human as we are and so they make mistakes every day. But such mistakes aren't the same thing as parts of who they are.
And with the sexual issues we generally are talking about, I think we are talking about who they are.
Second, I would never claim to do this perfectly. I stumble and fall every day.
But I think the key is less doing it perfectly, but more at least knowing what to do and not blaming other things.
First off, I'm THRILLED to see honest and frank Christian conversations about sex. Wow, what a concept. Second, what's transforming our sex life is me actually acting like a man. There's a passage in Wild At Heart that correctly and powerfully uses an explicit description of sex to illustrate male - female relationships. Namely, that the man must first be strong and firm in order for the woman to open up.
It's a beautiful passage and I've found it to be dead on. Like all things in God, it's an example of deep, deep meaning in all of his creation.
So, the more I have acted the part of a strong leaders. A man giving of my strength for my wife, the more she has blossomed. When I screw that up, often, she shrinks back. They say it's the woman who leads. Wrong. It's the man.
God Bless, Steve
Steve: Yeah, that was a lot of what I was trying to get across. Just to me even more important than strength in masculinity is a sense of duty and responsibility. The "a man's got to do what a man's got to do" attitude. Taking ownership, not passing blame. Standing up, stepping forward, and truly leading -- which as to involve embracing responsibility.
I'm glad FTN got a chance to work you over a bit, because I thought about him a lot while reading this.
I also have a full-blown post mostly on this one post of yours, but am sitting on it wondering if it is worth posting. Basically much of what you say is common sense, in a Dr. Phil sort of way. In fact, the whole "be a man" thing is his primary schtick when he talks to men about this issue.
Classifying people as being low desire or high desire is consistent with what is done in the medical community. Differing desire is a biomedical fact as well as a function of temperament. It's just like some people are more prone to anger, depression and addiction. The classification itself is not prescriptive, though. We have choices in how to react and some choices are clearly better than others. Your initial disclaimer of varying mileage applies.
As for my wife being a slob, there have been times when this has seemed true, as evidenced by my earlier writings. But she has made some big improvements there over the summer. It's not perfect but no one's life or health is in danger anymore, so I'm okay with it. I would have gladly cleaned the stuff up, and did when the kids were getting out of hand. But she has issues with me being in her stuff so me cleaning her clutter would NOT have been meeting her needs.
I just thought that needed clarification since it was directly cited. My wife is not really a slob, or at least being a slob makes her unhappy.
I think point #2 is your strongest or at least the one that got me thinking the most. Point #3 is actually the weakest, because of the relationship betweens acts of service and feelings of affection that is taken as a given. Sometimes this is true, but not always as emphasized in Chapman's "Love Languages." And this is further illustrated in your own case, where you found quality time to be more of a determining factor than acts of service, at least according to your earliest writings.
My attitude is what it is, and it changes for good or ill a lot of the time due to circumstances. I've got adjustments to make for sure. When I blog, I'm going to vent sometimes.
Shit happens.
I'm looking forward to the second part of this post, where you describe how you and Z got off to such a bad start and how this whole mess drug on for 7 years. And it would be enlightening beyond words to read her take on the whole subject if she's up for it.
And stop being such a baby and whining about your little cold. Suck it up and be a man!;-)
D.
XH, I've been reading your blog periodically -- I might have even commented in the past... can't remember. Meh.
The fact that you and your wife have turned areas of your marriage around is a great encouragement to me.
This post gave me lots to think about and in some ways mirrors some of my thoughts of late concerning giving more of myself -- investing more, if you will -- in my relationship with my husband.
I also recognize the validity of some of the counterpoints brought up by others. I actually had a discussion with my husband a couple nights ago which I will finish posting about later on which sort of illustrates my feelings on this.
Be back later with the link -- maybe you might have a different viewpoint.
Check out my posthere
Glad to see Digger and Flutterby contribute to this conversation, as they have some interesting points.
You wrote, I didn't say you have to accept everything your spouse does as if they were perfect, but you should accept what they are.
But the problem is that we can't really separate those two things in this case. It sounds all nice and simple when you write it that way, but it's very vague. If my wife IS someone that isn't excited about the prospect of sex, than that means what she DOES is... not get excited at all about the prospect of sex.
What we do IS who we are. It defines us.
So, when you say to completely and unreservedly accept who they are, you are still essentially saying to accept what they do.
Taja's husband? Maybe not a really passionate guy. Not as interested in sex as she is. Flutterby's husband? Same way. He'd rather play hockey. Maybe passionate sex would be too much work.
It's who they are.
Again, I'm all for "acting like a man" and being a model of headship, but I take issue with the implication that the problem lies there if my marriage has an imperfect sex life.
Thanks XH. I needed this kick in the pants. I've been guilty of all your points (it's not just a guy thing).
I have to bookmark this to come back and read any time I feel I'm focusing too much on how HE could be a better husband to me, not how I could be a better wife to him.
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