Intimacy
First of all, please notice that there was another post I put up on Friday before I put up the recipe. I'm not sure how many people noticed since I haven't been doing more than about a post a week lately. That one is important, and I'll probably come back to it later in my next post after this one.
So, Digger's been doing a lot of blogging lately on the book he's currently reading -- A Passionate Marriage if I remember right. I haven't read it, and, to tell the truth, really have no interest in reading it. It just seems in essence like every other pop-psychology, self-help book out there. But I WILL say that it -- or Digger's take on it -- has been pretty insightful. There is one pretty major theological issue I have with what it looks like he's saying, but I'll get to that next time, and aside from that it seems pretty good.
But one thing in particular got me thinking. Digger had a series of posts about things like hugging, kissing, foreplay, and eye-contract, and how they all relate to intimacy. I started thinking about this stuff and it was like a light-bulb went off in my mind. That really is the key.
Let's look at a lot of the major issues I have with my marriage: not enough kissing, not enough engagement from her, we need more eye-contact, things often feel too disconnected and mechanical, our conversations don't get very deep, etc. The key to all of this is intimacy. Those things that would most exhibit or lead to deep emotional intimacy are the things she avoids, and puts the brakes on if I try and go there. For instance, whenever I start feeling romantic and emotional towards her, and starting talking to her about how I care about her, she tells me to knock it off with all the "mushy stuff."
At this point, I'm hungering for deeper intimacy, and she's fighting it off. Which is not to say that, if she changed her mind and accepted it all and gave me exactly what I want I wouldn't freak out from it being too much, but this is where we are right now. I talked to her about this the last few days and she agrees.
So, what's the problem?
It's hard getting real answers about this sort of thing because that sort of conversation takes some intimacy to have. Catch 22. But she talked around it a lot. In the end, there is a large part of her that simply doesn't trust me not to hurt her. To not make fun of her. I'll admit that there are times when I pick on her a bit, but to me that's just part of being playful and flirty. She doesn't take it that way.
Man, what a lousy realization to have. Your sex-life sucks and your marriage is not anywhere near where it should be all because your wife doesn't trust you not to be cruel and purposely hurt her. It makes you feel like absolute crap.
I love my wife. I respect my wife. I think she's the bee's knees. She's a very intelligent person. But, at times and in certain areas, she's not as, um, well informed as most other people I talk to every day. When I'm talking about some subject -- history, politics, geography, or whatever -- there are a lot of times where she has absolutely no clue. Not really her fault. But I can't help but be surprised sometimes -- mainly because she's not an idiot, and I am comfortable with her intelligence, so when she demonstrates ignorance at something I would consider common knowledge I get surprised. And that absolutely destroys her self-confidence. It's not even anything I say, but the very fact of my surprise that she doesn't know what I'm talking about. She feels the very reaction is making fun of her and calling her stupid.
Geez.
Anyway, that's something to deal with over time. I still think that, in the end, every human being on the planet has some flaw that is going to hurt your feelings. If you wait to be intimate until there is no risk of being hurt then it will never happen. At some point you just have to open up, and part of that is accepting the hurt that comes along with it. There's a lot that my wife does that hurts me, too, yet that doesn't mean I don't still want to get closer.
I think the real issue -- beyond anything particular that I do -- is the lack of example. Her family has no real intimacy at all. You watch her parents and siblings and it's like a family of strangers. All very dry. All very guarded. They don't talk about anything. Not anything real. They don't share. They don't fight much, but that's because they never open up enough TO fight. My family, on the other hand, is a wide-open book. I want intimacy because I've seen intimacy and I've experienced it all my life. She hasn't.
How do you overcome that? Patience and prayer, I suppose.
So, Digger's been doing a lot of blogging lately on the book he's currently reading -- A Passionate Marriage if I remember right. I haven't read it, and, to tell the truth, really have no interest in reading it. It just seems in essence like every other pop-psychology, self-help book out there. But I WILL say that it -- or Digger's take on it -- has been pretty insightful. There is one pretty major theological issue I have with what it looks like he's saying, but I'll get to that next time, and aside from that it seems pretty good.
But one thing in particular got me thinking. Digger had a series of posts about things like hugging, kissing, foreplay, and eye-contract, and how they all relate to intimacy. I started thinking about this stuff and it was like a light-bulb went off in my mind. That really is the key.
Let's look at a lot of the major issues I have with my marriage: not enough kissing, not enough engagement from her, we need more eye-contact, things often feel too disconnected and mechanical, our conversations don't get very deep, etc. The key to all of this is intimacy. Those things that would most exhibit or lead to deep emotional intimacy are the things she avoids, and puts the brakes on if I try and go there. For instance, whenever I start feeling romantic and emotional towards her, and starting talking to her about how I care about her, she tells me to knock it off with all the "mushy stuff."
At this point, I'm hungering for deeper intimacy, and she's fighting it off. Which is not to say that, if she changed her mind and accepted it all and gave me exactly what I want I wouldn't freak out from it being too much, but this is where we are right now. I talked to her about this the last few days and she agrees.
So, what's the problem?
It's hard getting real answers about this sort of thing because that sort of conversation takes some intimacy to have. Catch 22. But she talked around it a lot. In the end, there is a large part of her that simply doesn't trust me not to hurt her. To not make fun of her. I'll admit that there are times when I pick on her a bit, but to me that's just part of being playful and flirty. She doesn't take it that way.
Man, what a lousy realization to have. Your sex-life sucks and your marriage is not anywhere near where it should be all because your wife doesn't trust you not to be cruel and purposely hurt her. It makes you feel like absolute crap.
I love my wife. I respect my wife. I think she's the bee's knees. She's a very intelligent person. But, at times and in certain areas, she's not as, um, well informed as most other people I talk to every day. When I'm talking about some subject -- history, politics, geography, or whatever -- there are a lot of times where she has absolutely no clue. Not really her fault. But I can't help but be surprised sometimes -- mainly because she's not an idiot, and I am comfortable with her intelligence, so when she demonstrates ignorance at something I would consider common knowledge I get surprised. And that absolutely destroys her self-confidence. It's not even anything I say, but the very fact of my surprise that she doesn't know what I'm talking about. She feels the very reaction is making fun of her and calling her stupid.
Geez.
Anyway, that's something to deal with over time. I still think that, in the end, every human being on the planet has some flaw that is going to hurt your feelings. If you wait to be intimate until there is no risk of being hurt then it will never happen. At some point you just have to open up, and part of that is accepting the hurt that comes along with it. There's a lot that my wife does that hurts me, too, yet that doesn't mean I don't still want to get closer.
I think the real issue -- beyond anything particular that I do -- is the lack of example. Her family has no real intimacy at all. You watch her parents and siblings and it's like a family of strangers. All very dry. All very guarded. They don't talk about anything. Not anything real. They don't share. They don't fight much, but that's because they never open up enough TO fight. My family, on the other hand, is a wide-open book. I want intimacy because I've seen intimacy and I've experienced it all my life. She hasn't.
How do you overcome that? Patience and prayer, I suppose.
posted by Christian Husband at 10:28 AM
11 Comments:
". . . so when she demonstrates ignorance at something I would consider common knowledge I get surprised. And that absolutely destroys her self-confidence."
It may take some practice, but if you could turn that surprise into enthusiasm (or whatever is applicable) about the subject, then you could relate the subject to her in a more sharing-the-knowledge kind of way. To me, some of the best conversations RL and I have (because he is a lot like your wife in the intimacy department) are about things he has more knowledge about. There is a connection I feel with him, like I'm important enough for him to take the time to explain/relate a topic to me. And, oddly enough, it is the most foreplay I can get. (It's sad saying that, but true.)
Patience and Prayer, and an awareness of your reactions when the surprise is there, I would add- the awareness that you now have.
I bet that just because you have this new knowledge, your reaction to something like that in the future, will be muted, and over time you'll be less visibly surprised. Perhaps that will, as Phyllis suggests, be replaced with a talk about the subject, which can lead to more sharing.
Hoping that's the case for you!
Tough spot, XH. It's probably worthwhile to try to get an 'objective' look at your responses to her. Of course, you know that you're not mocking her or tearing her down, but it's worth asking, why does she feel that way? Is there something I'm doing, some way that I'm saying what I say, that, in spite of my good intentions, is coming to her like ridicule?
If you can tackle that question openly and un-defensively, it's just possible that you'll get some real insight.
There's probably some validity to what you say about your respective families vis-a-vis intimacy, but I'll say that my family is a lot like how you describe Z's family, and yet I've always craved intimacy (maybe too much, sometimes). Molly's family is a lot like how you describe yours, but her 'feminine reserve', if I can call it that, isn't so very different from how you describe your wife. So, I don't know.
Things went a lot deeper for us, intimacy-wise, when we found ourselves facing a set of fairly severe crises, with nobody but each other and the Lord to lean on. Not that I'd wish on you what we went thru (I wouldn't), but that turned out to be a huge catalyst for radicalizing our marriage. . .
While working at my brother's book store today, I came across this book that you'd probably find a very interesting read. The author talks about how modern psychology has become almost a new religion in place of Christianity.
I don't know anything about Kilpatrick's book, but since it came up, 'Psychology as Religion', by Paul Vitz, is excellent. . .
Interesting. I make what I think is a very good and insightful post on an important topic and in almost a week it gets one comment. I make one about sex and intimacy and it gets 5 in just a few hours.
Lesson learned. :)
The thing with my reaction thing is that it is completely involuntary. I respect my wife and her intellect. So it surprises me when she doesn't know something. Legitimately surprises me. But where it means, to me, "wow, I'm surprised such a smart girl doesn't know that" she takes it as, "wow, I'm always surprised at what a dumb-ass you are."
But Phyllis's advice is good, and it SHOULD be a bonding and connecting sort of experience. Hmm.. Gotta' work on that.
But right now that's not where we are at. Let me illustrate what it IS like: remember the movie National Treasure? Not the recent sequel, but the original one. Remember when they are in Philadelphia and get sort of stuck and then the geeky assistant guy has the answer? And Nick cages character doesn't know that particular fact? The guy stops and, before revealing what he knows, says, "I know something you don't? Let me just sit here and savor this."
When we first watched that my wife turned to me and said, "That's exactly how I always feel."
On one hand, I can't help be what I am: a font of useless trivia. On the other, that shouldn't make my wife feel inferior or dumb.
Well, the part of this post that stood out to me most was not the sex/intimacy stuff, but your comment about pop psychology, which you and I probably have similar opinions about. :)
You never know what kind of post is going to generate the most comments!
I don't suppose that you would ever intentionally put her down. But, somehow or other, she feels put down. Or inferior, in one way or another. And that's what you've got to deal with.
For many years (and still, to some extent, altho not to the degree it had been true), I came across as angry to Molly, our kids, friends, whomever, when, in my own mind, I was just emphasizing a point, or being passionate about something. And for a long time, I just took the approach of, 'hey, this is how I am; deal with it'. I wasn't angry, and if they thought I was, it was their problem. In the fullness of time, tho, I came to see it as my problem - if, however unintentionally, I was putting people off, it behooved me to figure out how not to do that. Altho, it ain't easy to modify behavior that one isn't conscious of. . .
. . .
*sigh* (rushing in where angels fear to tread)
. . .
OK. . . what I'm about to say, I say with all benign good intention, and I beseech you to receive it as such, even tho you can't see my body language, or my facial expressions, or hear my tones of voice. . .
'Cuz sometimes, bro, you come across here in blogspace as arrogant and condescending, too. And I believe, in all sincerity, that you don't mean anything like that. But you do. So, I don't have a problem believing that Z (is she still going by that?) could be picking up a vibe like that, 'cuz I've picked it up, too (altho frankly, Z has access to all the 'nonverbals' that I don't, so I'm a lot more likely to 'get you wrong' than she would be).
See, even your little remark about your 'weighty' post generating no comment, while this one generates lots of interest - I believe, I really do, that you don't mean that as a cynical put-down, but do you see how it could be taken that way?
Anyway, I offer you this in all friendship, with all good wishes for you. I sincerely hope that I haven't given offense. Do with it what you think best. . .
Another thing I thought of is have you talked to your wife about what intimacy is to you? When I explained to RL that intimacy to me can be anything from talking, sitting together watching tv or playing backgammon together to all the kissy, holding hands, rubbing on each other stuff he started trying to initiate those types of things with me. Being intimate to him meant just having sex. So when he realized what I needed he started making an effort to change. He didn't know how to be intimate and affectionate before, because he hadn't ever learned how.
I just don't know if patience and prayer will work. You sound likely a deeply intelligent, highly conscious, erotic and self-aware person living with a neophobe from a different upbringing. Not bad, just different and somewhat incompatible in many important ways. It may be difficult to see eye-to-eye if one person wants to see and the other person doesn't want to. It can be very hard for some people to expand or change. One of the main prejudices I have against modern Christianity is that the culture is infused with neophobic values.
p.s. I
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